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PBS NewsHour (Nov to Dec 2017), Nov 17, 2017 - Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS..

Nov 17, 2017 - Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS..

Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS bombing campaign.

Hari Sreenivasan:

The Islamic State group has largely been driven from the cities in Iraq and Syria that it controlled with fear and terror.

A U.S. bombing campaign played a major role in the fight. But according to a report in The New York Times, thousands more civilians were killed in those bombing runs than the Pentagon initially admitted.

I spoke earlier with one of the authors from that report, Azmat Khan, about how she and her colleagues conducted the investigation.

Azmat Khan:

Well, we wanted to see how the coalition, the U.S.-led coalition, air campaign was playing out on the ground.

And so we did a systematic sample in three different traditionally ISIS-held areas near Mosul.

And we looked at every single airstrike in each of these areas.They were downtown Qaiyara, Shura, and the Aden district of East Mosul.

And what we found or what we were trying to figure out was which number of airstrikes of the total number of airstrikes in those areas had resulted in civilian deaths or casualties, and then from that to determine which one of those were coalition airstrikes, so that we could get a reliable sense of how effectively this campaign was going, because, when you look at the coalition's own statements about this, they boast that this is the most precise air campaign in the history of warfare. And I really wanted to know if that was the case.

Hari Sreenivasan:

And what did you find?

Azmat Khan:

We found that precision might not matter if the intelligence is wrong.

And of the 103 airstrikes we looked at, there were 20 civilian casualty incidents of airstrikes, and in about half of those, there appeared to be no discernible target nearby, no ISIS target, suggesting either poor or faulty intelligence.

So, if you don't have the right target in mind and you're conflating civilians with combatants, your precision may not matter, because if you're hitting a house the way you want in that exact way, it doesn't matter, if the target itself is an incorrect target. Hari Sreenivasan:

Now, went back to Central Command with your findings, showed them the kind of reporting that you had done, and compared them to, what, their own YouTube videos?

Azmat Khan:

Yes, their own YouTube videos, their own previous statements, their own public admissions or what they have acknowledged as civilian casualty incidents.

So, I went to the Combined Air Operations Center in Udeid, which is where all of these aircraft, where U.S.

Central Command is for the region and where these aircraft take off to bomb in Iraq and Syria.

And, you know, I interviewed many commanders.

I interviewed civilian casualty assessment experts.I spoke with legal advisers there.And then, ultimately, we provided them with the coordinates and date ranges of all 103 airstrikes and asked them if these were coalition airstrikes.

Ultimately, they denied several of them as unlikely, for which I was able to find their own videos that they'd uploaded of military Web sites of a coalition airstrike taking place in areas where they said, no, that wasn't us, the nearest airstrike we carried out was 600 meters away or the like. So, we were able to check them on how reliable their logs are, and thus whether or not you can question their investigative methods when they receive allegations of civilian casualties.

So, are they even able to identify when a strike is their own?Because the Iraqi air force is also carrying out airstrikes in Iraq.

Hari Sreenivasan:

OK, speaking of allegations, you actually humanize the whole story by following one individual who lost four members of his family to an airstrike, a civilian.

And he attempts to clear his name and possibly get reparations.

How is that process?

Azmat Khan:

So, Basim Razzo was a unique situation.

He's a unique man. He lived in the United States for several years in the '80s.He went to Western Michigan University.He is fluent in English.And he's somebody who was also more well-off than many of the civilian survivors that I have met.So, this is a man who was able to meticulously documented what happened to him. He was able to prepare a report, who had relatives, including a professor at Yale, who was advocating on his behalf, who was able to arrange a meeting at the U.S.

Embassy in Baghdad to report his case and bring a document file with him.

And even with all of those reporting mechanisms, it didn't result in his family and those four civilian deaths being acknowledged by the coalition. In fact, it took a follow-up from us in November of last year that prompted a process to realize that they had misplaced any original allegation that the coalition may have been looking at.

And, ultimately, in March of this year, they offered him a payment of $15,000.

It's a condolence payment, not meant to compensate him entirely for his home or the loss of life, but as a gesture of sympathy and gratitude. And, in this case, you have him turn down that offer, but this is the best-case scenario.

Right?So if it took him a year-and-a-half to get to that offer and that acknowledgement, and still not feel like he's gotten a good answer, what chance do those Iraqi civilian survivors who don't speak English, who don't have those connections or networks, or who haven't met a Western journalist who is taking up their case as a point of inquiry, as a point of journalistic inquiry? What kind of chance do they have of this?

Hari Sreenivasan:

All right, the report is called “The Uncounted” at The New York Times.

Azmat Khan, thanks so much for joining us.

Azmat Khan:

Thank you for having me.

Nov 17, 2017 - Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS.. 17. November 2017 - Bericht zeigt Ungleichheiten bei zivilen Todesopfern der US-geführten ISIS. Nov 17, 2017 - Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS.. Nov 17, 2017 - Un informe revela disparidades en las muertes de civiles por. 17 novembre 2017 - Un rapport révèle des disparités dans les décès de civils dus à l'Etat islamique dirigé par les États-Unis. 17 novembre 2017 - Il rapporto rileva disparità nelle morti di civili a causa dell'ISIS guidato dagli Stati Uniti.... 2017年11月17日 - 米軍主導のISISによる民間人の死亡に格差があるとの報告書 2017년 11월 17일 - 보고서에서 미국 주도의 ISIS로 인한 민간인 사망자 수에 격차가 있음을 발견했습니다. Nov 17, 2017 - Ataskaitoje nustatyta, kad JAV vadovaujamos ISIS civilių žūčių skaičius skiriasi. 17 nov 2017 - Rapport vindt verschillen in burgerdoden door ISIS onder leiding van VS. 17 listopada 2017 r. - Raport stwierdza rozbieżności w liczbie ofiar śmiertelnych wśród ludności cywilnej w wyniku działań ISIS pod przywództwem USA. 17 de nov de 2017 - Relatório revela disparidades nas mortes de civis causadas pelo ISIS liderado pelos EUA... Nov 17, 2017 - Доклад обнаруживает диспропорции в количестве погибших мирных жителей от действий ИГИЛ, возглавляемых США. 17 Kasım 2017 - Rapor, ABD öncülüğündeki IŞİD'in sivil ölümlerinde eşitsizlikler olduğunu ortaya koyuyor. 17 листопада 2017 - Звіт виявляє розбіжності у кількості жертв серед цивільного населення від очолюваної США ІДІЛ... 2017 年 11 月 17 日 - 报告发现美国领导的 ISIS 造成的平民死亡人数存在差异。 2017 年 11 月 17 日 - 報告發現美國領導的 ISIS 造成的平民死亡人數有差異。

Report finds disparities in civilian deaths from U.S.-led ISIS bombing campaign. Un rapport révèle des disparités dans les décès de civils dus à la campagne de bombardements de l'Etat islamique menée par les États-Unis.

Hari Sreenivasan:

The Islamic State group has largely been driven from the cities in Iraq and Syria that it controlled with fear and terror. Le groupe État islamique a été en grande partie chassé des villes d'Irak et de Syrie qu'il contrôlait avec peur et terreur.

A U.S. bombing campaign played a major role in the fight. La campagne de bombardements a joué un rôle majeur dans la lutte. But according to a report in The New York Times, thousands more civilians were killed in those bombing runs than the Pentagon initially admitted. Mais selon un rapport du New York Times, des milliers de civils supplémentaires ont été tués dans ces bombardements que le Pentagone n'avait initialement admis.

I spoke earlier with one of the authors from that report, Azmat Khan, about how she and her colleagues conducted the investigation.

Azmat Khan:

Well, we wanted to see how the coalition, the U.S.-led coalition, air campaign was playing out on the ground. Eh bien, nous voulions voir comment la campagne aérienne de la coalition, la coalition dirigée par les États-Unis, se déroulait sur le terrain.

And so we did a systematic sample in three different traditionally ISIS-held areas near Mosul. Et donc nous avons fait un échantillon systématique dans trois différentes zones traditionnellement contrôlées par l'Etat islamique près de Mossoul.

And we looked at every single airstrike in each of these areas.They were downtown Qaiyara, Shura, and the Aden district of East Mosul.

And what we found or what we were trying to figure out was which number of airstrikes of the total number of airstrikes in those areas had resulted in civilian deaths or casualties, and then from that to determine which one of those were coalition airstrikes, so that we could get a reliable sense of how effectively this campaign was going, because, when you look at the coalition's own statements about this, they boast that this is the most precise air campaign in the history of warfare. Et ce que nous avons trouvé ou ce que nous essayions de comprendre, c'est quel nombre de frappes aériennes sur le nombre total de frappes aériennes dans ces zones avait entraîné des morts ou des blessés civils, puis à partir de cela pour déterminer lesquelles étaient des frappes aériennes de la coalition, de sorte que nous pouvions avoir une idée fiable de l'efficacité de cette campagne, car, lorsque vous regardez les propres déclarations de la coalition à ce sujet, ils se vantent qu'il s'agit de la campagne aérienne la plus précise de l'histoire de la guerre. And I really wanted to know if that was the case.

Hari Sreenivasan:

And what did you find?

Azmat Khan:

We found that precision might not matter if the intelligence is wrong. Nous avons constaté que la précision n'a peut-être pas d'importance si l'intelligence est erronée.

And of the 103 airstrikes we looked at, there were 20 civilian casualty incidents of airstrikes, and in about half of those, there appeared to be no discernible target nearby, no ISIS target, suggesting either poor or faulty intelligence. Et sur les 103 frappes aériennes que nous avons examinées, il y a eu 20 victimes civiles de frappes aériennes, et dans environ la moitié d'entre elles, il ne semblait y avoir aucune cible discernable à proximité, aucune cible de l'EI, ce qui suggère des renseignements médiocres ou défectueux.

So, if you don't have the right target in mind and you're conflating civilians with combatants, your precision may not matter, because if you're hitting a house the way you want in that exact way, it doesn't matter, if the target itself is an incorrect target. Donc, si vous n'avez pas la bonne cible en tête et que vous confondez civils et combattants, votre précision n'a peut-être pas d'importance, car si vous frappez une maison exactement comme vous le souhaitez, cela n'a pas d'importance , si la cible elle-même est une cible incorrecte. Hari Sreenivasan:

Now, went back to Central Command with your findings, showed them the kind of reporting that you had done, and compared them to, what, their own YouTube videos? Maintenant, je suis retourné au Commandement central avec vos découvertes, je leur ai montré le genre de reportage que vous aviez fait et je les ai comparés à, quoi, leurs propres vidéos YouTube ?

Azmat Khan:

Yes, their own YouTube videos, their own previous statements, their own public admissions or what they have acknowledged as civilian casualty incidents. Oui, leurs propres vidéos YouTube, leurs propres déclarations précédentes, leurs propres aveux publics ou ce qu'ils ont reconnu comme des incidents impliquant des victimes civiles.

So, I went to the Combined Air Operations Center in Udeid, which is where all of these aircraft, where U.S. Donc, je suis allé au Combined Air Operations Center à Udeid, où se trouvent tous ces avions, où les États-Unis

Central Command is for the region and where these aircraft take off to bomb in Iraq and Syria.

And, you know, I interviewed many commanders.

I interviewed civilian casualty assessment experts.I spoke with legal advisers there.And then, ultimately, we provided them with the coordinates and date ranges of all 103 airstrikes and asked them if these were coalition airstrikes. J'ai interviewé des experts en évaluation des pertes civiles. J'ai parlé avec des conseillers juridiques là-bas. Et puis, finalement, nous leur avons fourni les coordonnées et les plages de dates des 103 frappes aériennes et leur avons demandé s'il s'agissait de frappes aériennes de la coalition.

Ultimately, they denied several of them as unlikely, for which I was able to find their own videos that they'd uploaded of military Web sites of a coalition airstrike taking place in areas where they said, no, that wasn't us, the nearest airstrike we carried out was 600 meters away or the like. En fin de compte, ils ont nié que plusieurs d'entre eux étaient improbables, pour lesquels j'ai pu trouver leurs propres vidéos qu'ils avaient téléchargées sur des sites Web militaires d'une frappe aérienne de la coalition se déroulant dans des zones où ils ont dit, non, ce n'était pas nous, le la frappe aérienne la plus proche que nous avons effectuée était à 600 mètres ou quelque chose comme ça. So, we were able to check them on how reliable their logs are, and thus whether or not you can question their investigative methods when they receive allegations of civilian casualties. Ainsi, nous avons pu vérifier la fiabilité de leurs journaux, et donc si vous pouvez ou non remettre en question leurs méthodes d'enquête lorsqu'ils reçoivent des allégations de victimes civiles.

So, are they even able to identify when a strike is their own?Because the Iraqi air force is also carrying out airstrikes in Iraq. Alors, sont-ils même capables d'identifier quand une frappe est la leur ? Parce que l'armée de l'air irakienne mène également des frappes aériennes en Irak.

Hari Sreenivasan:

OK, speaking of allegations, you actually humanize the whole story by following one individual who lost four members of his family to an airstrike, a civilian. OK, en parlant d'allégations, vous humanisez en fait toute l'histoire en suivant un individu qui a perdu quatre membres de sa famille dans une frappe aérienne, un civil.

And he attempts to clear his name and possibly get reparations. Et il tente de blanchir son nom et éventuellement d'obtenir des réparations.

How is that process? Comment est ce processus?

Azmat Khan:

So, Basim Razzo was a unique situation.

He's a unique man. He lived in the United States for several years in the '80s.He went to Western Michigan University.He is fluent in English.And he's somebody who was also more well-off than many of the civilian survivors that I have met.So, this is a man who was able to meticulously documented what happened to him. Il a vécu aux États-Unis pendant plusieurs années dans les années 80. Il est allé à l'Université Western Michigan. Il parle couramment l'anglais. Et c'est quelqu'un qui était aussi plus aisé que la plupart des survivants civils que j'ai rencontrés. c'est un homme qui a pu documenter méticuleusement ce qui lui est arrivé. He was able to prepare a report, who had relatives, including a professor at Yale, who was advocating on his behalf, who was able to arrange a meeting at the U.S. Il a pu préparer un rapport, qui avait des proches, dont un professeur à Yale, qui plaidait en son nom, qui a pu organiser une réunion aux États-Unis

Embassy in Baghdad to report his case and bring a document file with him. Ambassade à Bagdad pour signaler son cas et apporter un dossier avec lui.

And even with all of those reporting mechanisms, it didn't result in his family and those four civilian deaths being acknowledged by the coalition. Et même avec tous ces mécanismes de signalement, cela n'a pas permis à sa famille et à ces quatre morts civiles d'être reconnues par la coalition. In fact, it took a follow-up from us in November of last year that prompted a process to realize that they had misplaced any original allegation that the coalition may have been looking at. En fait, il a fallu un suivi de notre part en novembre de l'année dernière qui a déclenché un processus pour se rendre compte qu'ils avaient égaré toute allégation originale que la coalition aurait pu examiner.

And, ultimately, in March of this year, they offered him a payment of $15,000.

It's a condolence payment, not meant to compensate him entirely for his home or the loss of life, but as a gesture of sympathy and gratitude. C'est un paiement de condoléances, non destiné à l'indemniser entièrement pour sa maison ou la perte de la vie, mais comme un geste de sympathie et de gratitude. And, in this case, you have him turn down that offer, but this is the best-case scenario. Et, dans ce cas, vous lui demandez de refuser cette offre, mais c'est le meilleur des cas.

Right?So if it took him a year-and-a-half to get to that offer and that acknowledgement, and still not feel like he's gotten a good answer, what chance do those Iraqi civilian survivors who don't speak English, who don't have those connections or networks, or who haven't met a Western journalist who is taking up their case as a point of inquiry, as a point of journalistic inquiry? Donc, s'il lui a fallu un an et demi pour obtenir cette offre et cette reconnaissance, et qu'il n'a toujours pas l'impression d'avoir obtenu une bonne réponse, quelle chance ont ces survivants civils irakiens qui ne parlent pas anglais, qui n'ont pas ces connexions ou réseaux, ou qui n'ont pas rencontré un journaliste occidental qui prend leur cas comme point d'enquête, comme point d'enquête journalistique ? What kind of chance do they have of this?

Hari Sreenivasan:

All right, the report is called “The Uncounted” at The New York Times.

Azmat Khan, thanks so much for joining us.

Azmat Khan:

Thank you for having me. Je vous remercie de m'avoir accueillie.