#252 Mark & Steve – Kids' Language Learning and Nationalism #252 Mark & Steve - Aprendizaje de idiomas y nacionalismo en la infancia #252 マーク＆スティーブ - 子供の言語学習とナショナリズム #252 Mark & Steve - Nauka języka i nacjonalizm wśród dzieci #252 Mark & Steve - Aprendizagem de línguas pelas crianças e nacionalismo #252 Mark & Steve - Çocukların Dil Öğrenimi ve Milliyetçilik #252 Марк і Стів - Вивчення мови дітьми та націоналізм

Steve:    Hello. Hello Mark.

Mark:    Hi Steve.

Steve:    Hello out there. It's time for another EnglishLingQ Podcast. You know we have had some questions. We've also had people suggest that we should have a female voice, so we are going to try to find one. In the meantime, you'll have to deal with Mark and Steve. ||bu arada|||||||| Bu arada, Mark ve Steve ile başa çıkmak zorunda kalacaksın. Mark:    Some people have difficulty telling our two voices apart, apparently. Mark: Sommige mensen hebben blijkbaar moeite om onze twee stemmen uit elkaar te houden. Mark: Bazı insanların, iki sesimizi ayırt etmekte zorlandığı anlaşılıyor.

Steve:    That's right. Steve: Doğru. Well, which I can understand. Especially if it's not in your own language, I can see that as a problem. Mark:    For sure.

Steve:    We could try one of us doing a female impersonation, but we won't do that, no. ||||||||||taklidi|||||| ||||||||||imitación femenina|||||| Mark:    Maybe not today, we'll save that. Steve:    Not today, we'll save that. Steve: Niet vandaag, dat bewaren we. Some of the questions we've had…one question was…I was asked the question, “Do your sons speak a lot of languages?”  Because I speak quite a few languages, my wife speaks quite a few languages. “Did your sons learn a lot of languages as children and how did you manage to do that?” “Hebben uw zonen als kind veel talen geleerd en hoe bent u daarin geslaagd?”

So my normal answer is that my older son, Eric, essentially speaks English and stumbles around in French. ||||||||||||||dolaşır||| ||||||||||||||tropieza||| And Mark for the longest time was in the same situation and now, as a result of having lived in various countries in Europe and in Japan, he does speak four or five languages, so maybe I should ask Mark. How did your parents try to get you to learn languages and what was the reaction of you and your brother?

Mark:    Well, I guess we weren't that interested in learning languages as kids. All of our friends spoke English and I don't think we really saw the point of learning other languages. We spoke English at home. Our friends spoke English. We spoke English at school and when we were encouraged to learn other languages, which we didn't want to do because we would rather do other things, I think we didn't go for it. Steve:    Do you remember the time we were traveling in France and I had the cassette playing the French lessons as we drove around the French countryside? ||||||||||||||||||||||||||campo francés

Mark:    I remember.

Steve:    Was that an effective measure? |||||önlem Стив: Это была эффективная мера? Steve: Bu etkili bir önlem miydi?

Mark:    That had a big impact. Mark: Bunun büyük bir etkisi oldu. I don't know, I guess it was just too artificial. Bilmiyorum, sanırım bu sadece çok yapaydı. Plus, what we were listening to wasn't interesting. You have to be…if you're not motivated you're just not going to learn. We weren't motivated, we didn't particularly want to learn and I guess we didn't see the point. Steve:    Now, when you found yourself…I guess the first foreign country you lived in as a hockey player -- when you were a professional hockey player -- was Italy. Were you then motivated to learn Italian?

Mark:    Oh, absolutely. So, all of a sudden, there I was in Italy and, hey, it'd be nice to speak to everybody. You know, most places you go to you can more or less get by speaking English and using hand gestures, but you get a lot more out of it if you can speak to the locals. I was that way everywhere I went. I tried to learn as much as I could of the language and tried to speak it because you just get a lot more out of the experience.

So, at that point, yeah, then I started trying to learn Italian. And I still remember being surprised, actually, in that little town that I was in. There was a market there -- this is right after I got there and I knew essentially no Italian -- and I was at the market trying to talk to these guys selling stuff and, actually, hardly any of them spoke any English at all.

I was surprised that they spoke German and they spoke French, but no English, which surprised me. Maybe I shouldn't have been surprised, but I was, thinking a common second language for most people might be English. Anyway, what French I did have came in handy then and certainly there are similarities with Italian. De todos modos, el francés que tenía me resultaba útil entonces y ciertamente hay similitudes con el italiano.

Steve:    The German, of course, could come from the fact you were in an area that was close to the German-speaking part of Italy. You're just below the Alto Adige or South Tyrol, so, yeah. ||debajo|||||||| Mark:    Right.

I mean, I think, absolutely. That's because they got tourists… Steve:    Right.

Mark:    …from Germany and probably from France.

Steve:    That too, yeah.

Mark:    So those are the languages they're going to learn. I don't think they got too many English-speaking people in that area visiting, so they didn't learn this language. Steve:    And then for three years you played in German-speaking countries, Austria and Switzerland.

Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    So I guess your German is better than your Italian?

Mark:    It is now, yeah.

Steve:    Yeah.

Mark:    Yeah, for sure. I mean it's been a long time since I was in Italy and so…  At the time I could get by in Italian. I wouldn't say I spoke it well, but I could get by and the French helped a lot. When I first went to Austria that was different because I just remember having the feeling when I first got there going to a store and I didn't know…essentially, I didn't know one German word. Not one, I don't think, I mean maybe dunka. ||||||||dunka I knew none. I just remember standing there.

I hadn't really focused on it because it kind of happened in a hurry and all of a sudden there I was in Austria and I go to speak to someone and wow, I don't know anything. Even in Italy it felt like a few more words. Maybe because I had a little more warning and I had studied a little bit before I went there, but I remember that experience.

Steve:    Now a lot of parents, of course, want their children to learn languages, either because they think it's a good thing for them to do for their education. Parents of children, you know, who live in non-speaking English countries want their kids to learn English. There's a bit of a fad now in North America for parents to get to learn Mandarin Chinese, in the U.S. |||||trend|||||||||||||||| |||||modası|||||||||||||||| |||||moda pasajera|||||||||||||||| Сейчас в Северной Америке есть мода на то, чтобы родители изучали китайский язык в США. I guess Spanish.

Then you have this issue of immigrants who want their kids to learn, you know, the ancestral language, so you have these Chinese kids or Japanese kids that are sent to Chinese school on Saturday, which they don't like. What should parents do, in your opinion, to get their kids to learn some of these languages?

Mark:    Yeah, I don't really know. I know that it seems like quite a few of my kids' friends…there seem to be quite a few that have a Japanese parent and they all get sent to Japanese school on Saturday. And I feel bad for those kids because I mean that's got to be the last thing you want to do on a Saturday. And I think, in the long run, that's got to build up a little bit of resentment towards Japanese, you know? ||||||||||||||||kızgınlık|||| Steve:    Right.

Mark:    And how much do they really learn? We lived in Japan when I was a kid and we had Japanese class in school. It was an English international school, but I didn't learn much. We had Japanese a few times a week or whatever it was, so once a week Japanese school. I don't know. I don't know what they learn there, but it probably doesn't amount…  If they ever got interested and went to Japan for a month they'd probably pick up more. |||||||||||no importa||||||||||||||||| Steve:    Well that's always been my theory. That rather than building up resentment or resistance…  I say that now, that was not my approach when I was a parent, but, you know, if they're young enough and you can give them interesting things to do. At age four, five, six, seven kids don't care. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    You know your three children had French Immersion, they're quite happy. ||||||||eğitimi||| Everything happens in French. That doesn't bother them. Mark:    No.

Steve:    So I think if you can get them to do things early enough when they don't really resist then later on perhaps more of them might develop an interest and, as you say, once they have an interest then it's very quick, like three months, six months, whatever. Go to Japan, go to Germany, whatever, France, you learn it right away. It's not difficult. If a person is motivated it's not difficult, so. But, yeah, we were not very successful. We tried a number of different things.

Mark:    Yeah.

I don't know why, particularly, but I guess fundamentally if there's something else you'd rather be doing you're not going to…  Whereas, I mean you talk about my kids at school, well they have to go to school anyway, so the school takes place in French. ||||||||fundamentally||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||preferirían||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Я не знаю, почему, в частности, но я предполагаю, что если есть что-то еще, что вы бы предпочли делать, вы не собираетесь… Принимая во внимание, что вы говорите о моих детях в школе, ну, они все равно должны ходить в школу , поэтому школа проходит на французском языке. Steve:    Right.

Mark:    That's just how it is. Steve:    You know I think that even…your kids are in French Immersion, but even kids that aren't in French Immersion I think they should start – and I've said this on my blog – languages in grade one and it should consist purely and simply of listening and reading and watching movies with no requirement to speak the language whatsoever. ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||hiçbir şekilde ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||en absoluto Стив: Вы знаете, я думаю, что даже… ваши дети учатся с погружением во французский язык, но даже дети, которые не учатся во французском погружении, я думаю, они должны начать – и я говорил об этом в своем блоге – языки в первом классе, и это должно состоять из чисто и просто слушать, читать и смотреть фильмы без какого-либо требования говорить на языке. Mark:    And it'd be different if…like they're in school anyway. Steve:    Right.

Mark:    So if they're not studying a language then they're studying History or they're doing some other…whatever. Steve:    Yeah.

Mark:    So they're there anyway and if it's something fun and you just listen and it's easy to do they can start to enjoy that. It's a little bit different if you're choosing between studying French or running around outside with your friends. Steve:    Right.

But, no, my point is, though, that they start them early and then they test them, okay?

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    You know your child got C in French or your child got A in French. And we know that all those children in the Canadian system in grade two, three, four, five, six got A in French, in grade 12 when they graduate they can't speak French. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    So does it really matter whether they got an A or a C in grade two?

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    Anyway. But, so that was one subject, one question we had. Another question we had was…

Mark:    Well how about you when you were a kid?

Steve:    Yeah, my parents tried to get us to speak French. Okay, kids, now we're going to speak French around the table, you know? We'd say three things about the “pommes de terre” and that was it. ||||||potatoes|of|potatoes|||| We'd switch back to English because you couldn't do it. Mark:    No.

Steve:    And it was only at the age of 16 when I got turned on. |||||||||ne zaman|||| Steve: Y no fue hasta los 16 años cuando me encendí. Steve: Ve yalnızca 16 yaşımda heyecanlandım. That once motivated then you can learn in a hurry. Bu bir kez motive ettiğinde, o zaman aceleyle öğrenebilirsin.

Mark:    So your parents spoke French? Mark: Yani ailen Fransızca mı konuşuyordu?

Steve:    They knew how to speak French.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    But, you know, parents have these moments.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    Okay, now we're going to do this. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    So, okay, now we're going to speak French around the table. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    There would be about three or four words exchanged before a few, you know, tears or whatever, depending on the age… ||olurdu||||||||||||||||||| Стив: Было бы примерно три или четыре слова, прежде чем несколько, ну вы знаете, слезы или что-то в этом роде, в зависимости от возраста… Steve: Yaşına bağlı olarak, birkaç, biliyorsun, gözyaşı veya neyse, önce yaklaşık üç ya da dört kelime alışverişi yapılır...

Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

Steve:    …and pretty soon we're back to English. Steve: ...ve kısa süre sonra yine İngilizceye dönüyoruz. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    It was done.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    Although I know some parents who are not French speaking who speak French to their kids all the time and the kids reply in English.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    It's so unnatural. Mark:    I know.

Steve:    I don't know how they can do it. Mark:    I mean your kids only grow up the one time. |||||sadece||||| ||||||crecen|||| Mark: Quiero decir que tus hijos sólo crecen una vez. Mark: Yani çocuklarınız sadece bir kez büyüyorlar. You can't do it in English the second time. İkinci kez İngilizce yapamazsınız. Steve:    I know. Steve: Biliyorum.

Mark:    It's just strange. Steve:    I mean the big thing is a motivated child will learn so very quickly, why go through the torture? |||||||||||||||||||işkence But, as I say, if you can get them interested at an early age, that's why stories, videos, fun. I mean one day we'll have our LingQ for juniors. Mark:    I mean, I guess, like what if…I don't even know. You know you talked about when we were in France and you had French tapes playing, what if you had a French audio book of something that we were interested in? ||||||||||||||cintas||||||||||||||||

Steve:    Right.

See you were already older then.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    You would already know.

Mark:    That's true. Steve:    I think it's more like grade one when the kids are so happy to be in school eager to learn. ||||||||||||||||||enthusiastic|| ||||||||||||||||||ansiosos por|| Mark:    Right.

Steve:    It's the first two or three years. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    If you can get them to listen to even more than one language and learn about different words. In a different language they have different sounds and they say things this way and they use these different words and kids think -- you know when they're that young -- that's great. Mark:    It's fun, yeah. Steve:    That's fun. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    Once they're 10-11 everything is just, no, so that's a problem. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    Okay, let's just cover the other subject we were asked about and that was nationalism because one of our members posted a video or at least a link to a video on our forum. It was a Japanese nationalist at the Yasukuni Shrine who was explaining how really Japan didn't start the Pacific part of the Second World War. ||||||||Shrine|||||||||||||||| |bir||||||||||||||||||||||| Yasukuni Tapınağı'nda Japon milliyetçisi birisi, Japonya'nın gerçekten de İkinci Dünya Savaşı'nın Pasifik kısmını başlatmadığını açıklıyordu. That they were really trying to liberate all the Asian people from, you know, white racist imperialism and that really all the countries of Asia really thanked the Japanese for that, that they liked them and stuff. ||||||özgürleştirmek|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| Aslında, bütün Asya halklarını beyaz ırkçı emperyalizmden kurtarmaya çalıştıklarını ve gerçekten Asya'nın bütün ülkelerinin Japonlara bunun için teşekkür ettiğini, onları sevdiklerini falan söyledi. And then there was a foreigner there who said, no, you can't say that because in Germany that's against the Constitution. |||||yabancı|||||||||||||||Anayasa Ve orada bir yabancı vardı ki, hayır, bunu söyleyemezsin çünkü Almanya'da bu Anayasa'ya aykırı. That's what he said. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    So everybody just shouted and weren't even listening to him. Steve: Yani herkes sadece bağırdı ve onu dinlemiyorlardı. Mark:    No. Mark: Hayır.

Steve:    I mean it was a tremendously sort of nationalistic reaction. Steve: Demek istediğim, bu son derece ulusalcı bir tepkiydi. And the person who posted this on our forum is Japanese and he said he was very embarrassed by the behavior of these Japanese people and nationalism is a bad thing and what do we think of nationalism. Ve forumumuzda bunu paylaşan kişi Japon ve bu Japonların davranışları nedeniyle çok utandığını söyledi ve milliyetçiliğin kötü bir şey olduğunu düşündüğümüzü sordu.

So I responded that in that particular case, like I know a lot is made is this business of Japanese people going to the Yasukuni Shrine, but the vast majority of people who are buried there are ordinary Japanese soldiers, as far as I know. |||||||||||||||||||||||||Shrine||||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||Yasukuni|||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||||||santuario|||||||||enterrados|||ordinarios||||||| Bu yüzden buna yanıt verdim ki, bu özel durumda, Japonların Yasukuni Tapınağı'na gitmesiyle ilgili çok şey yapıldığını biliyorum, ancak orada gömülü olan insanların büyük çoğunluğu bildiğim kadarıyla sıradan Japon askerleri. So for the Japanese to go and pay their respects to people who gave their lives to their country I really don't have a big problem. Así que para los japoneses ir a presentar sus respetos a las personas que dieron su vida por su país realmente no tengo un gran problema. Bu yüzden Japonların ülkeleri için hayatlarını veren insanlara saygı göstermek için gitmelerinin benim için büyük bir sorunu yok. I mean that's normal. That happens everywhere.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    When this fellow says that, you know, the Japanese were just trying to liberate their Asian brothers from European imperialism that's really not quite true. Steve: Bu adam böyle söylediğinde, yani Japonların Asyalı kardeşlerini Avrupa emperyalizminden kurtarmaya çalıştığını söylüyorsa, bu gerçekten de tam olarak doğru değil. There's a very small element of truth in there, but mostly it's not true. Orada çok küçük bir gerçeklik payı var, ama genelde bu doğru değil. But he believes it to be true. Ama o bunu doğru olduğuna inanıyor.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    But would he go to China and make that speech? Steve: Ama o Çin'e gidip o konuşmayı yapar mıydı?

Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

He wouldn't get out of China after having made that speech. O konuşmayı yaptıktan sonra Çin'den çıkamazdı. Steve:    He wouldn't get out of China or Korea or the Philippines. |||||||||||Filipinler And, yet, you know, as I now learn different languages, as I listen to Russian, I am on a Chinese forum where people talk and so forth, there's a lot of nationalism around. Or even when we watch, you know, the American politicians during the Democratic Convention or the Republican Convention, God Bless America, America is the greatest force for good in the world. |||||||||||||Konvansiyon||||||||||||||||| Even here in Canada you have people who, you know, believe we're just so much nicer than the Americans because we're Canadian. Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    Well, no, we've got just as many nasty people as any other place, you know? Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    So by enlarge I think it's nice to feel that you belong somewhere and that you feel a sense of closeness to your own, until you discover that you don't like them as individuals… |||||||||||||||||||||yakınlık||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||||||||cercanía||||||||||||| Стив: В общем, я думаю, приятно чувствовать, что ты принадлежишь чему-то и чувствуешь близость к себе, пока не обнаружишь, что они тебе не нравятся как личности… Steve: Yani genel olarak bir yere ait olmanın ve kendi insanlarına yakınlık hissetmenin güzel olduğunu düşünüyorum, ta ki bireyler olarak onları sevmediğini keşfedene kadar… Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

Steve:    …and you can find people of a totally different nationality whom you like. Steve: …ve tamamen farklı bir milletten hoşlandığın insanlar bulabilirsin. But in a very general sense to feel you like this place, you like being identified with this place, you feel good about the countryside, the people, whatever, that's fine. Ama çok genel bir anlamda, burayı seviyorsun, burayla özdeşleşmeyi seviyorsun, köy hayatı, insanlar, her neyse, bu sorun değil. But some people do that it well beyond that and so in Japan they're rewriting history, in Russia they're rewriting history. ||||||||||||||reescribiendo|||||| Ama bazı insanlar bunu çok daha ötesine taşıyorlar ve bu yüzden Japonya'da tarih yeniden yazılıyor, Rusya'da da tarih yeniden yazılıyor. So, yeah, it is… Yani, evet, bu…

Mark:    Well, I mean in Canada they're rewriting history, you know, all the time with that more politically correct bent. |||||||||||||||||||eğilimle |||||||||||||||||||enfoque político Mark: Bueno, quiero decir que en Canadá están reescribiendo la historia, ya sabes, todo el tiempo con esa inclinación más políticamente correcta. Марк: Ну, я имею в виду, что в Канаде переписывают историю, знаете ли, все время с более политкорректным уклоном. Mark: Yani, Kanada'da sürekli olarak, daha siyasi olarak doğru bir bakış açısıyla tarihi yeniden yazıyorlar, biliyorsun. I mean, depending on the prevailing sentiment, people are always rewriting history, which is kind of unfortunate. |||||current||||||||||| |||||hakim olan|duygular||||||||||talihsiz |||||predominante|sentimiento predominante|||||||||| Я имею в виду, что в зависимости от преобладающих настроений люди всегда переписывают историю, что довольно печально. Yani, hâkim duygulara bağlı olarak, insanlar her zaman tarihi yeniden yazıyorlar, bu da biraz talihsiz. But I guess there was probably a prevailing sentiment at the time those history books were written in the first place. |||||||||||||||||||initially| Ama tahmin ediyorum ki, o tarih kitapları ilk yazıldığında muhtemelen hâkim bir duygu vardı.

Steve:    Well, exactly. I mean you can't avoid it. History is a description of what happened so that in terms of what they choose to identify as important…

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    …there's already a bias. ||||önyargı ||||sesgo Mark:    Seen through the…yeah. Mark: Görülen…evet.

Steve:    And then their interpretation of that there's a bias, so you can get the sort of more politically correct sort of European colonialists were all bad stuff. ||||yorumlama|||||||||||||||||||sömürgeciler|||| |||||||||||||||||||||||colonialistas europeos|||| Steve: Ve sonra bunun yorumları, bir önyargı olduğu, bu yüzden daha politik doğrucu bir şekilde Avrupa sömürgecilerinin hepsinin kötü olduğu şeyleri alabiliyorsun. Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

Steve:    Or you can get the other side, which is we're the greatest. I don't know how you strike a happy… Mutlu nasıl olacağınızı bilmiyorum… Mark:    Right. Mark: Tamam.

Steve:    There should almost be some kind of…  Particularly in the Far East there should be almost like a Korean-Chinese-Japanese joint history committee to write the textbooks… ||||||||||||||||||||||ortak|||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||comité conjunto|||||| Стив: Должно быть что-то вроде… В частности, на Дальнем Востоке должен быть почти что корейско-китайско-японский совместный исторический комитет для написания учебников… Steve: Neredeyse bir tür olmalı… Özellikle Uzak Doğu'da neredeyse Koreli-Çinli-Japon ortak bir tarih komitesinin ders kitaplarını yazması gerekiyor…

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    …to be used in all three countries.

Mark:    Well, you know it was interesting, actually. I was listening to...  Serge has a collection on French history, so I was listening to his chapter about the Second World War.

Steve:    Right.

Mark:    And you know it was just interesting to hear it from a French perspective. It was just different than what we normally hear.

Steve:    Right.

Mark:    Obviously here in Canada we always hear about the contribution of the Canadian troops. ||||||||||katkı||||

Steve:    Right.

Mark:    But when the rest of the world talks about the Second World War the Canadian troops don't get much of a mention. Mark: Ama dünya genelinde İkinci Dünya Savaşı konuşulduğunda, Kanadalı askerler pek fazla bahsedilmiyor. Mostly they're grouped in with the British troops. Genellikle Britanya askerleriyle bir arada gruplandırılıyorlar. Steve:    Right. Steve: Doğru.

Mark:    So there was that A and B and I don't know how big a role the Free French Army had in the invasion of Normandy, but certainly I heard more about it there than I would have if I was reading about it here. |||||||||||||||||||||||||Normandía||||||||||||||||||| And that's just natural, you read history or you see it through the lens of the person telling the story. Steve:    Well, I mean, yeah, and it's interesting in Russia. First of all, because we see so many movies, most of our information about the Second World War seems to come from movies. Most of our movies are not about the Russian Front… |||||||||Cephesi

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    …they're about the Western Front. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    So we would assume, somehow, that the Second World War was fought in Western Europe.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    In fact, it was overwhelmingly fought in Russia. |||||ağırlıklı olarak|||

Mark:    Yeah.

Steve:    And so, on the other hand, the Russians are persuaded that people in the West don't even know that the Russians were in the War kind of thing, you know? ||||||||Ruslar|||||||||||||||||||||| Steve: Ve bu nedenle, diğer yandan, Ruslar Batı'daki insanların Rusların savaşta olduğunu bile bilmediğine ikna olmuş durumdalar, biliyor musun? And the other thing that's interesting now is that in Russia people -- at least the government and many people in the government -- feel that the Soviet Union, as such, Stalin's Soviet Union, is them, is their country and therefore you cannot say anything negative about what the Soviet Union did in the Second World War. Ve şu anda ilginç olan bir diğer şey, Rusya'da insanlar - en azından hükümet ve hükümetteki birçok insan - Sovyetler Birliği'nin, yani Stalin'in Sovyetler Birliği'nin kendileri olduğunu, kendi ülkeleri olduğunu düşünüyorlar ve bu nedenle Sovyetler Birliği'nin İkinci Dünya Savaşı'ndaki yaptıkları hakkında herhangi bir olumsuz şey söyleyemezsiniz. Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

Steve:    And therefore something like the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact is now being justified as a very clever move by Stalin to, you know, stall the Germans for two years so he could build up his defenses and move the boarder a little further, you know, to the West so that he would be better able to deal with Hitler, which is, of course, complete and utter nonsense… ||||||||Pact|||||||||||||||stall||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| ||||||Molotov|Ribbentrop|Pakt||||haklı çıkarılıyor|||||||||||oyalmak||||||||||||savunmalarını||||||||||||||||||daha iyi||||||||||||söylemek| |||||||||||||||||||||||retrasar||||||||||||defensas|||||||||||||||||||||tratar con|||||||||totalmente absurdo| Steve: Y por lo tanto algo como el Pacto Molotov-Ribbentrop se justifica ahora como un movimiento muy inteligente de Stalin para, ya sabes, entretener a los alemanes durante dos años para que pudiera construir sus defensas y mover la frontera un poco más lejos, ya sabes, hacia el oeste para que pudiera enfrentarse mejor a Hitler, lo cual es, por supuesto, una completa y absoluta tontería... Стив: И поэтому что-то вроде пакта Молотова-Риббентропа теперь оправдывается как очень умный ход Сталина, чтобы, знаете ли, задержать немцев на два года, чтобы он мог укрепить свою оборону и отодвинуть границу немного дальше, понимаете. , на Запад, чтобы лучше иметь дело с Гитлером, что, конечно, полная и полнейшая чепуха... Steve: Ve bu nedenle Molotov-Ribbentrop Paktı gibi bir şey, Stalinin Almanları iki yıl boyunca oyalamak için, savunmalarını güçlendirip sınırı biraz daha batıya kaydırabilmesi için çok zeki bir hamle olarak haklı çıkarılıyor ki, Hitler ile daha iyi başa çıkabilsin. Bu, elbette, tamamen ve tamamen saçmalık...

Mark:    Right. Mark: Doğru.

Steve:    …because the Russian Army of five million people was essentially wiped out by the German advance. ||||||||||||||||ilerlemesi Steve: ...porque el ejército ruso de cinco millones de personas fue esencialmente aniquilado por el avance alemán. Стив: …потому что пятимиллионная русская армия была практически уничтожена немецким наступлением. Steve: ...çünkü beş milyon insanı olan Rus Ordusu esasen Alman ilerlemesi tarafından yok edildi. And the Germans were much weaker in 1939, September '39, where then if the Russians had taken them on together with the British and the French they would have stopped them. ||||||||||||Ruslar|||||||||||||||| Y los alemanes eran mucho más débiles en 1939, septiembre del 39, donde entonces si los rusos los hubieran enfrentado junto con los británicos y los franceses los habrían detenido. Ve Almanlar 1939, Eylül '39'da çok daha zayıftılar, o zaman Ruslar Britanyalılar ve Fransızlarla birlikte onlara saldırmış olsalardı durdururlardı. Whereas, by '41 the Germans were much stronger, they'd already dealt with their Western enemies and they just came in and smeared the Russians. ||||||||||||||||||||sürüp|| ||||||||||||||||||||destruyeron|| Oysa 41'de Almanlar çok daha güçlüydüler, zaten Batılı düşmanlarıyla başa çıktılar ve sadece geldiler ve Rusları ezdiler. On top of which Stalin had decimated all his senior officers. ||||||kırıp geçirdi|||| ||||||diezmado|||| Además, Stalin había diezmado a todos sus oficiales superiores. Üstelik Stalin tüm üst düzey subaylarını önemli ölçüde azaltmıştı. I mean the whole story is just like it was a completely stupid thing to do.

Mark:    Right.

Steve:    But because it's identified with the Soviet Union and the Soviet Union is identified with when Russia was strong so now there's this whole attempt to kind of make that part of their…this is us. Стив: Но поскольку он отождествляется с Советским Союзом, а Советский Союз отождествляется с тем временем, когда Россия была сильна, так что теперь вся эта попытка сделать часть их… это мы. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    You can't say nasty things about us. So nationalism does that.

Mark:    I mean it starts to get a bit scary when countries start to get belligerent and deny or, as you say, not just sort of changing the tone of the history, but actually changing it completely around. |||||||||||||||savaşçı|||||||||||||||||||||| |||||||||||||||beligerantes|||||||||||||||||||||| Марк: Я имею в виду, что становится немного страшно, когда страны начинают становиться воинственными и отрицать или, как вы говорите, не просто меняют тон истории, а на самом деле полностью ее меняют.

Steve:    Well it is in the way of interpretation, but again in Russia they have a committee to deal with falsification of history that is against the interest of the…  But that's only Russia. ||||||||yorumlama||||||||||||sahtecilik||||||||||||| I happen to be into Russia because I'm reading Russian. Resulta que me gusta Rusia porque estoy leyendo ruso. Mark:    Right.

Steve:    But nationalism, I think, my feeling on nationalism is, in a modest way, a sense of belonging, sense of pride, sense of community, sense of solidarity, is a good thing. ||||||||||||modest|||||||||||||||||| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||dayanışma||||

Mark:    Well, people like to belong.

Steve:    Once you think your group is better than some other group we've got problems. Mark:    And that's not just nationalism, I mean that's religion… Steve:    …any ideology.

Mark:    But those are probably subjects to touch on in future…

Steve:    And touch on lightly.

Mark:    And touch on lightly in future episodes.

Steve:    Alright, thank you for listening. Bye for now.